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Toon going forth

Martin brings you a teaser from White Hart Lane

Features - Martin Tyler Posted 5th October 2011 view comments

Martin Tyler's stats and facts column is back for the new season!

Every week he will be here to offer you statistical gems to make your day, impress your mates and, on occasion, to settle the odd bet.

Sky Sports' voice of football and his back-up team of experts are here to answer your questions and queries on all things statistical and historical from the beautiful game.

Will Spurs add a Welsh scalp to their wins against Scottish and Irish clubs?

Will Spurs add a Welsh scalp to their wins against Scottish and Irish clubs?

If you have spotted something from a game or have been stumped by a pub quiz question, simply email skysportsclub@bskyb.com and he will do his best to help.

Tyler's Starting Stat - Rafael earns his Spurs

I was commentating on Sunday's North London derby and witnessed Tottenham's third Premier League win in four games against Arsenal - but only their fourth win in the last 32. They are now unbeaten at home in their last 16 Premier League London derbies since a 3-1 reversal to the Gunners in September 2007.

Rafael van der Vaart became Tottenham's highest Premier League scorer against Arsenal, even though he has only played against them three times. His strike on Sunday was his fourth and he overtook Gareth Bale, who is on three - and maybe should have scored at 2-1 to kill the game off. Arsenal's leading Premier League scorer against Spurs remains Robert Pires with seven.

Kyle Walker bagged his first Tottenham goal in his first North London derby having played once in a Birmingham derby for Aston Villa and once in a Sheffield derby for Sheff United.

Meanwhile, Arsenal's worst Premier League away run continues - eight games without a win since a 3-1 success at Blackpool on April 10.

Last week's leftovers

Last week we promised to research the last time Manchester United lost a game after being two goals ahead. We can tell you it was on December 8, 1984 when they lost 3-2 at Nottingham Forest in the league. A Gordon Strachan brace gave the away side a two-goal lead, but goals from Gary Mills, John Metgod and Steve Hodge saw Forest come back to win. So Basel nearly achieved something that had not been done for 27 years!

TOON GO FORTH
Newcastle are fourth in the league after seven matches, could you do a rundown of where the fourth placed team after seven matches have finished in the Premier League's history? Cheers, Michael Robson (Newcastle Utd fan)

MARTIN SAYS: In each of the last four seasons, the team that has been fourth at the end of the seventh Premier League matchday has gone on to finish the season in fourth place. So the omens are good for Newcastle supporters.

As you can see from the list below, every team that has been in fourth place at the end of the seventh round of fixtures has finished the season in the top half of the table. I am looking forward to seeing how Newcastle get on against Tottenham in my next commentary game in a couple of week's time.

SeasonTeam fourth after seven matchdaysFinal league position
1992/93Man Utd1st
1993/94Coventry11th
1994/95Man Utd2nd
1995/96Arsenal5th
1996/97Man Utd1st
1997/98Leicester10th
1998/99West Ham5th
1999/00Leeds3rd
2000/01Liverpool3rd
2001/02Man Utd3rd
2002/03Tottenham10th
2003/04Birmingham10th
2004/05Bolton6th
2005/06Tottenham5th
2006/07Portsmouth9th
2007/08Liverpool4th
2008/09Arsenal4th
2009/10Tottenham4th
2010/11Arsenal4th
2011/12Newcastle?

UNBEATEN RECORD IS UNBEATEN
Dear Martin. I am a Man United fan from Egypt and I am very surprised that FOUR Premier League teams are yet to taste defeat despite the fact that each of the teams has already played seven Premier League matches, is that a sort of a new record? Mohamed El-Kholy, Cairo, Egypt

MARTIN SAYS: This is indeed a Premier League record. Manchester United, Manchester City, Aston Villa and Newcastle are all unbeaten after seven games and that has never happened before. As you can see from the list below, the previous high after seven games was three unbeaten teams, which occurred in four seasons - 1994/95, 2001/02, 2002/03 and 2003/04.

In each of those four seasons, one of the three unbeaten teams lost their eighth match (Birmingham in 2003/04, Chelsea in 2002/03, Aston Villa in 2001/02 and Blackburn in 1994/95), so we have never seen more than two teams unbeaten after eight games.

Teams unbeaten after seven games:

1992/93:Ipswich, Blackburn
1993/94: Coventry
1994/95: Newcastle, Blackburn, Nottingham Forest
1995/96: Arsenal, Nottingham Forest
1996/97: Liverpool, Man Utd
1997/98: Man Utd, Arsenal
1998/99: Aston Villa, Leeds
1999/00: Man Utd
2000/01:Man Utd, Leicester
2001/02: Leeds, Aston Villa, Chelsea
2002/03: Arsenal, Liverpool, Chelsea
2003/04: Arsenal, Chelsea, Birmingham
2004/05:Arsenal, Chelsea
2005/06: Chelsea
2006/07: Everton, Aston Villa
2007/08: Arsenal, Liverpool
2008/09: Chelsea, Liverpool
2009/10: None
2010/11: Man Utd, Fulham
2011/12: Man Utd, Man City, Newcastle, Aston Villa

NOT-SO-HOT TROTTERS
Dear Martin, Bolton have conceded 21 goals in their first seven Premier League games. Is this a record? Cheers, Mark Simpson

MARTIN SAYS: Yes, Mark, it is. No side has previously conceded more than 20 goals in their opening seven games. The Derby team of 2007/08 - who eventually got relegated having amassed just one victory all season - had the previous worst with 20 goals conceded from the opening seven games but Bolton have eclipsed that.

The Trotters' porous defence has left them bottom of the table at this point but they can take heart from the Newcastle side of 1999/2000. The Toon Army conceded 19 goals from their maiden seven games (the third-worst in Premier League history) but still went on to finish in a respectable 11th place come May.

However, as our table below shows, that is a rarity. Most teams with such leaky backlines after seven games do go down.

As has been mentioned in other quarters, Bolton have played a high calibre of team so far and perhaps should be judged after the next seven games.

Blackburn (17 conceded this season) and Arsenal (16 conceded this season) figure quite highly in the overall standings of goals shipped after seven Premier League games. Should they be worried?

TeamSeasonPlayedConcededRelegated
Bolton11/12721-
Derby07/08720Y
Newcastle99/00719N (11th)
Hull09/10719Y
Nottingham Forest92/93718Y*
Southampton98/99718N (16th)
Wolves03/04718Y
Swindon93/94717Y*
Bolton95/96717Y
Barnsley97/98717Y
Blackburn11/12717-
Coventry94/95716N (16th)*
Everton94/95716N (17th)*
Wimbledon99/00716Y
West Ham01/02716N (7th)
Leeds03/04716Y
Arsenal11/12716-

*22-team Premier League

ONE TO THREE
Hi Martin, I was surprised to read that Andy Johnson's hat-trick against QPR was Fulham's first in the Premier League. It got me thinking: how many hat-tricks have all the other teams in Premier League history got? Thanks, Danny Stephens

MARTIN SAYS: You're right. Johnson scored Fulham's first top-flight hat-trick since Allan Clarke on February 4 1967 in a 5-1 home win against Newcastle when the Cottagers finished 18th in the old Division One.

The accolade for most Premier League hat-tricks goes to Arsenal who have notched 30 since September 1993 when Kevin Campbell opened their account against Ipswich. Of that 30, Thierry Henry notched eight. Great rivals Liverpool and Manchester United come next with 28 apiece, while Chelsea and Blackburn complete the top five with 17 and 16 respectively.

As the table below shows, Fulham are one of nine teams to have scored just one Premier League hat-trick, along with Birmingham, Bolton, Bradford, Ipswich, Nottingham Forest, Sheffield United, Swindon and Wimbledon.

Of the 45 teams to play in the Premier League, 33 have accrued hat-tricks. Wolves, Stoke and Swansea could all score their first Premier League hat-tricks this season, while other sides who have played in the Premier League but failed to score a hat-trick are: Burnley, Barnsley, Blackpool, Watford, Hull, Oldham, Reading, Crystal Palace and Derby.

TeamNo of PL hat-tricksFirst hat-trick scorerDateOpposition
Arsenal30Kevin Campbell11 September, 1993 Ipswich
Liverpool28Mark Walters17 April, 1993 Coventry
Man United28Andrei Kanchelskis10 November, 1994 Man City
Chelsea17Gavin Peacock4 February, 1996 Middlesbrough
Blackburn16Alan Shearer 23 October, 1993 Leeds
Tottenham14Teddy Sheringham20 February, 1993 Leeds
Newcastle11Peter Beardsley23 October, 1993Wimbledon
Everton10Tony Cottee21 August, 1993 Sheffield United
Leeds10Eric Cantona25 August, 1992Tottenham
Man City9Nicolas Anelka14 September, 2003 Aston Villa
Aston Villa8Dean Saunders12 February, 1994 Swindon
Coventry6Micky Quinn14 August 1993Arsenal
Portsmouth6Teddy Sheringham26 August, 2003Bolton
Middlesbrough5John Hendrie5 December, 1992Blackburn
Southampton5Matt Le Tissier8 May, 1993Oldham
QPR4Andy Sinton28 December, 1992Everton
West Ham4Tony Cottee17 December, 1994Man City
Sunderland3Kevin Phillips18 September, 1999 Derby
Norwich3Mark Robins9 November, 1992Oldham
Charlton2Clive Mendonca22 August, 1999Southampton
Leicester2Ian Marshall22 February, 1997 Derby
Sheff Wednesday2Chris Bart-Williams12 April 1993Southampton
West Brom2Robert Earnshaw19 March, 2005Charlton
Wigan2Henri Camara16 December, 2005 Charlton
Birmingham1Mikael Forssell1 March, 2008 Spurs
Bolton1Fredi Bobic6 April, 2002Ipswich
Bradford1Dean Windass21 April, 2000Derby
Fulham1Andy Johnson2 October, 2011QPR
Ipswich1Marcus Stewart7 April 2001Southampton
Nottingham Forest1Kevin Campbell17 November, 1996Coventry
Sheff Utd1Brian Deane6 January, 1993Ipswich
Swindon1Jan Age Fjortoft5 February, 1994Coventry
Wimbledon1Dean Holdsworth26 April, 1994Oldham

MID-WAY MAULINGS
Hi Martin. I am currently watching the Bolton v Chelsea game live on Sky Sports. Are Chelsea the first Premier League team to lead by four goals at half-time in an away game in the Premier League? I can't imagine it's happened very often before, if at all. Mark (Chelsea fan)

MARTIN SAYS: On Sunday, Chelsea became the 38th side to be four - or more - goals up at half time in the Premier League. It's the third time they've done this themselves, but the first time away from home.

To answer your question, eight sides have previously been 4-0 up at half-time in a league game in an away game. The last side to do so was Arsenal at Newcastle last season - and they were pegged back to 4-4 by the end of the game!

Furthermore, you may recall a side that was 5-0 up at half-time in a Premier League away game. Back in April 2010, Manchester City led 5-0 at half-time at Burnley thanks to goals from Emmanuel Adebayor (2), Craig Bellamy, Patrick Vieira and Carlos Tevez. They went on to win 6-1 and no other side has ever led by that many goals at half-time in a Premier League game, even at home.

Four goals ahead at half-time in the Premier League (thanks to Opta for these stats):

13/04/1998: Blackburn 0-4 Arsenal
26/04/1998: Derby 0-4 Leicester
11/04/2001: Man City 0-4 Arsenal
18/08/2001: Leicester 0-4 Bolton
22/02/2003: Man City 0-4 Arsenal
23/08/2003: Wolves 0-4 Charlton
02/12/2006: Wigan 0-4 Liverpool
03/04/2010: Burnley 0-5 Man City
05/02/2011: Newcastle 0-4 Arsenal
02/10/2011: Bolton 0-4 Chelsea

HAT-TRICK OF HOME NATIONS
Dear Martin. Really love the column and I would be very grateful if you could answer a question. I support Spurs, and after our victory against Shamrock Rovers and Hearts in the Europa League, I was wondering if we could complete an unique treble if we beat Swansea in the league. I really can't remember the last time an English team beat opposition from Scotland, Wales and Ireland, and I was wondering if this has ever been done? Kind Regards, Phillip Lee

MARTIN SAYS: If Tottenham beat Swansea in the Premier League this season then they will indeed become the first side to beat Welsh, Irish and Scottish opponents in competitive games in the same campaign.

In fact, they are going to become the first English side to play teams from Scotland, Ireland and Wales in the same season no matter what happens.

With the help of Opta, we can tell you the instances of English teams beating nations from two other home nations in the past.

Beating sides from Scotland and Republic of Ireland in the same season:

1970/71: Wolves beat Dundee, Hearts, Morton and Derry City (Texaco Cup)

2011/12: Tottenham beat Hearts (Europa League) and Shamrock Rovers (Europa League)

Beating sides from Wales and Republic of Ireland in the same season:

1969/70: Liverpool beat Wrexham (FA Cup) and Dundalk (Fairs Cup)

1981/82: Tottenham beat Swansea (league) and Dundalk (Cup Winners Cup)

1981/82: Southampton beat Swansea (league) and Limerick City (UEFA Cup)

1982/83: Liverpool beat Swansea (league) and Dundalk (European Cup)

Beating sides from Wales and Northern Ireland in the same season:

1961/62: Leicester City beat Cardiff (league) and Glenavon (Cup Winners Cup)

1976/77: Southampton beat Cardiff (league) and Carrick Rangers (Cup Winners Cup)

1982/83: Tottenham beat Swansea (league) and Coleraine (Cup Winners Cup)

NB. We have not included teams beating sides from Scotland and Wales in the same season. Due to the presence of the Texaco Cup / Anglo-Scottish Cup in the 1970's and the prevalence of Welsh teams in the English leagues this is quite a common occurrence.

Tyler's teaser

Fill in your answers to Martin's teaser using the feedback form below - and keep those questions coming in!

Comments (29)

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Michael Robson (Newcastle United fan) says...

My original quetion to MT was not intended to course such bickering, however it has been entertaining, to clear it up MT stated that is was after the 7th round of matches not 7 matches, there is a difference, for all us toon fans lets make the most of what we now have, but lets not get carried away, we have a good side but a weak squad, based on what I have seen so far this season I believe that Spurs will finish 4th, but from the 6 teams we have played who were in the prem last season we are 10 points better off from the same fixtures last season, so Spurs should not take us lightly, we are a better team than last season

Posted 19:37 6th October 2011

Jon Madhar (Wolverhampton Wanderers fan) says...

Hi Martin after watching Wolves v Newcastle game and seeing two decisions going against Wolves, i.e the penalty and goal which weren't given but most experts and supporters of football agreed they should have been allowed, my question is what other games has the referee got the most decisions wrong?

Posted 17:39 6th October 2011

Mark Cato (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

oops I was thinking of us playing you not Everton! sorry guys but beating Everton by 5 is not impossible and what your GD will be after you play Manchester's terrible twins who knows but I guarantee it won't be a +ve any more!!!

Posted 17:19 6th October 2011

Alex Kyrios (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

A win by four would do. We already have more goals scored.

Posted 15:13 6th October 2011

Oli Milestone (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

At the end of the day where you finish after 38 games is what matters. Personally I hope Spurs finish forth and I would think they are favourites due to the bad start Arsenal have made. Would be very surprised if Newcastle finish in top 6 nevermind forth. Should be a good game next week..... COYS!!!

Posted 14:45 6th October 2011

Marcus Brendling (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

Who cares who is fourth after seven games? bottom line is Newcastle aint gonna finish there no matter what the "omen" is haha. I want spurs to finish at least 4th obviously but i think we will finish 5th. But in all seriousness it is good to see newcastle battling in the top half of table like they should be and can see them finishing in the top 8 so i think the Spurs v Newcastle game is set up nicely. going for a 2-1 spus win.

Posted 14:25 6th October 2011

Liam Kelly (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

The facts on here are correct and we (Tottenham) would of had to beat everton 5-0 to be above Newcastle at the moment. But what the facts dont show is that Newcastle have played a poor Arseanal at home and drew 0-0, a derby match at Sunderland and won 1-0 but other than that have played Fulham, QPR, Villa, Blackburn, & Wolves. Not exactly the toughest of fixtures. Lets see how Newcastle do against Man Utd, Man City, and Liverpol as Spurs have played all of them and beat a poor Arsenal at home. I have noticed thats Spurs and Newcastle both played Arsenal at home with Spurs winning 2-1 and Newcastle drawing 0-0, they have also both played Wolves away to and both won that game Spurs 2-0 and Newcastle 2-1. So out of the same games we have played against each other THFC have 6 points and +3 GD NUFC have 4 points and +1 GD, just thought I would point it out as this page is all about stats and facts. But we will get a better judgement on things after the game at St James Park in a couple of weeks should be a close game and I canny wait.

Posted 13:16 6th October 2011

S M (Newcastle United fan) says...

@Shane, it only needs to be by three clear goals, because Spurs' GD is 1 and ours is 5. 3-0 = Spurs GD 4 and our GD 2. Due to our goals scored, 2-0 is not sufficient.

Posted 12:50 6th October 2011

Dave Cook (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

It's not "a fact" as in a football games there is always a chance a score could be 4-0 which is all Spurs need as there goals scored is 11 to Newcastle's 9. Hence all Spurs need to do to go third is match Newcastle's goal difference. Saying that probably will be nil - nil after all that :)

Posted 12:45 6th October 2011

Marcus Brendling (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

Who cares who is fourth after seven games? bottom line is Newcastle aint gonna finish there no matter what the "omen" is haha. I want spurs to finish at least 4th obviously but i think we will finish 5th. But in all seriousness it is good to see newcastle battling in the top half of table like they should be and can see them finishing in the top 8 so i think the Spurs v Newcastle game is set up nicely. going for a 2-1 spus win.

Posted 12:27 6th October 2011

Etri Lad (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

If Spurs beat Newcastle by more than 2 goals they will go above them (It seems most Newcastle fans aren't able to grasp the maths so i'll spell it out, +2 goals for Spurs is also -2 goals for Newcastle)

Posted 11:57 6th October 2011

Gareth Kent (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

Well the comment about being Manchester Untited feeders should be rethought as now it appears everyone feeds players to both Manchester clubs.hahahaha

Posted 11:54 6th October 2011

Gordon Laird (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

@ Kye hart - Its the begining of the end for spurs?? Really. Have you seen our squad. You Newcastle fans should know better than anyone no one is bigger then the club. Personally i wouldnt get too comfortable in the top 4. The only top team you have played this season is arsenal and that was nil nil. Sunderland, villa, fulham, blackburn & wolves are not going to be pushing for the top 4. Beat spurs comfortably next week and i may change my view. At the moment your punching above your weight, i would bet my house spurs finish well above u. Of course you will say im wrong, your a bigger club etc etc. Lets see next may

Posted 11:13 6th October 2011

Nick Turner (Newcastle United fan) says...

While it will only be Spurs 7th match, that doesn't change the fact that it will still be our 8th. So whichever way you look at it, we ARE 4th after 7 games. And whats more we will be extending that unbeaten run against Spurs. So sorry Lawrie

Posted 08:24 6th October 2011

Lee Baxter (Manchester United fan) says...

Tottenham will obliterate Newcastle when they meet next weekend so remember what 4th spot feels like...

Posted 08:02 6th October 2011

John Richardson (Manchester United fan) says...

Hi Martin. I have noticed that after seven games, Stoke City are the Premier League's lowest scorers with 4 goals, yet they sit 8th in the table. Bolton Wanderers have scored 9 goals (5 more than Stoke) but lie in 20th place. My question is, has a relegated team ever scored more goals than a top half team in Premier League history, once the season has finished?

Posted 21:44 5th October 2011

Russell Harper (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

With the greatest respect to Toon fans,lets not get carried away,you have played Sunderland,qpr.Fulham,villa Blackburn and Wolves with only Arsenal of any note.Spurs have already played Utd,City Liverpool,and Arsenal.So lets wait until you have played the top teams to make a judgement.

Posted 21:34 5th October 2011

Spurs 4life (Tottenham Hotspur fan) says...

Well if only the league were played over 7 games, oh no only another 31 to go... Deluded Newcastle fans who were saying they were going to get relegated and get Ashley out only 2 months ago... Fickle, eh? Won't last, no chance, you'll be back where you belong in 5 games time mark my word. Starting next week - how many top 5 teams you played so far?? Oh yeah, just the one, if you can call them one anymore! ;)

Posted 21:12 5th October 2011

Michael Hope-jefferson (Newcastle United fan) says...

Well that is not strictly true Lawerance. Spurs would not only have to win but would have to win by 4 clear goals to go into 4th.

Posted 20:03 5th October 2011

Olarinde Olanrewaju (Chelsea fan) says...

pls, i would like to know the higest no of goals scored in a premier league match in history and the highest no of goals scored by chelsea in a league match in history

Posted 19:13 5th October 2011

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