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Late fates and greats

What's United's record margin over Liverpool?

Martin Tyler Posted 17th March 2010 view comments

Martin Tyler's stats and facts column is here!

Every week he will be here to offer you statistical gems to make your day, impress your mates and, on occasion, to settle the odd bet.

Sky Sports' voice of football and his back-up team of experts are here to answer your questions and queries on all things statistical and historical from the beautiful game.

Gordon: conceded a series of vital late goals

Gordon: conceded a series of vital late goals

If you have spotted something from a game or have been stumped by a pub quiz question, simply email here and he will do his best to help.

Tyler's Starting Stat - Cats end City hoodoo

I was at the Stadium of Light on Sunday and despite Manchester City's late equaliser, Sunderland can console themselves with the fact that it was the first time in 10 games that they didn't lose to City. The last time they took any points against them was December 2000 when Don Hutchison scored in a 1-0 win.

Kenwyne Jones played in five of those nine consecutive defeats, scoring two goals in the process - but his goal on Sunday took his record to three goals in six games against City. Meanwhile, Adam Johnson - who comes from a family of Sunderland supporters - scored his first City goal. The irony wasn't lost on the boy from County Durham!

In my research before the game I also came across the interesting statistic that Darren Bent is the third highest Premier League goalscorer since August 2005 behind Wayne Rooney and Cristiano Ronaldo:

Top 10 Premier League goalscorers since Aug 2005:

1. Wayne Rooney - 79 in 156 games
2. Cristiano Ronaldo - 75 in 134 games
3. Darren Bent - 67 in 157 games
4. Didier Drogba - 66 in 132 games
5. Frank Lampard - 61 in 160 games
6. Robbie Keane - 58 in 152 games
7. Jermain Defoe - 58 in 155 games
8. Emmanuel Adebayor - 55 in 122 games
9. Fernando Torres - 53 in 76 games
10. Steven Gerrard - 50 in 158 games

WEAR WE GO AGAIN...
Martin. I write to you as a weary Wearsider having seen my beloved Sunderland punished late in a game for the umpteenth time this season against Manchester City. If all the goals we'd shipped in the last 10 minutes were declared void, we'd be laughing up here. Can you tell me how many points we've lost from conceding late goals please? Tim Hughes.

MARTIN SAYS: You're not mistaken in thinking Sunderland have had a hard time of it with late goals this season, Tim. The eight goals your side has conceded inside the final 10 minutes of games have cost 10 points. To put that in context, Blackburn have conceded nine goals in the last 10 minutes, yet they have not lost a single point as a result. Here's a table of how every defence in the Premier League has fared in the final 10 minutes of matches - look away now, all you Sunderland fans...

TeamGls concededPts lost
Man Utd40
Chelsea30
Arsenal72
Tottenham55
Liverpool62
Man City75
Aston Villa75
Birmingham94
Everton43
Fulham32
Stoke87
Blackburn90
Bolton81
Sunderland810
Wigan112
West Ham50
Wolves55
Burnley114
Hull152
Portsmouth74

ROO'S THE BOSS
Hi Martin. I hope you've been enjoying Wayne Rooney's recent exploits as much as us United supporters. I reckon he can beat Cristiano Ronaldo's 42 goals from 2007-08, but am I right in thinking Rooney can end the season having scored against every single Premier League team? That would be some achievement.Cheers, Lee Mills.

MARTIN SAYS: There is no doubt Rooney is a joy to behold for United supporters at the moment, but I'm afraid there is no chance of a 'full house' for your man this season, Lee. Of all the teams United have already played twice in the Premier League Rooney has failed to find the net against two - Aston Villa and his first love Everton. He did score against Villa in the Carling Cup final of course, so theoretically he could end the season having scored against 18 of United's 19 top-flight rivals. To do that Rooney would need to register against Stoke, Sunderland, Chelsea and Liverpool in the games remaining. You can see how he gets on against the latter two live on Sky Sports in the next few weeks.

And since you are comparing Rooney to his former team-mate, it is worth noting that Ronaldo managed to score against 18 of 19 Premier League teams during his record-breaking 2007-08 campaign. The Portugal star was on target against 17 rivals in the league and netted against Chelsea in the Champions League final. The one scalp missing was that of Manchester City, though he can at least point to the fact he was suspended for one of the two derbies that season - both of which United lost.

POINTS AND PRIZES
Dear Martin. With Manchester United flying high at the top and Liverpool struggling outside the Champions League places, I was wondering if United are on course for a record Premier League points margin over Liverpool this season? In the year when we're going to overtake their 18 league titles, that really would be the icing on the cake! Seb (Manchester United fan).

MARTIN SAYS: United are currently 15 points ahead of Liverpool and could go 18 points clear after Sunday's meeting at Old Trafford. However, they are still some way from recording their best ever Premier League finish over Liverpool.

Back in 1993/94, United finished 32 points ahead of their rivals, although that was of course a 42-game season. In 38-game Premier League seasons, the record difference is 25 points - which was achieved by United in their treble-winning season of 1998/99. That season Liverpool finished seventh with just 54 points. However, after 30 games of that season the gap was just 14 points. This year it is 15 points, so Liverpool were in fact better off at this stage in 1999!

I have detailed the difference in points between the two teams in the table below. As you can see, Liverpool have only finished above United once in Premier League history.

38-game seasons:

SeasonPoints margin
2008/094
2007/0811
2006/0721
2005/061
2004/0519
2003/0415
2002/0319
2001/02-3 (Liverpool ahead)
2000/0111
1999/0024
1998/9925
1997/9812
1996/977
1995/9611

42-game seasons:

SeasonPoints margin
1994/9514
1993/9432
1992/9325

KEEPING IT CLEAN
Everyone seems very keen to point out Arsenal's poor discipline record under Arsene Wenger, but not so keen to point out they have not had a red card yet this season. I looked at the stats and no other team gone 29 games WITHOUT receiving a red card this season. Has a team ever gone a whole Premier League season without receiving a red card? Also, I saw Fulham have just 33 yellow cards this season. This seems low. Is this a record? Simon

MARTIN SAYS: Our records on discipline only go back to the start of the 1996/97 season, but in that period several sides have gone the whole season without any of their players getting sent off. They include:

No red cards in a season since 1996/97:

2008/09: Liverpool
2007/08: Bolton
2006/07: Liverpool
2004/05: Chelsea
2003/04: Bolton
2001/02: Derby
1996/97: N Forest

In the same period, several teams have managed to go an entire season receiving less than one yellow card per game. The most impressive disciplinary record was that of Southampton in the 2001/02 season when they only picked up 26 bookings!

Fulham currently have 33 yellow cards to their name and will be hoping to join this list of sides with the fewest yellow cards in a season:

Fewest yellow cards in a season since 1996/97:

2001/02: Southampton (26)
2000/01: Ipswich (32)
2001/02: Ipswich (33)
2004/05: Norwich (35)
2004/05: Charlton (37)
2001/02: Liverpool (37)
1996/97: Wimbledon (38)
2008/09: Fulham (40)
2007/08: Everton (40)
2006/07: Reading (40)
2003/04: Charlton (40)
2001/02: Aston Villa (40)

COPING WITHOUT KING
Hi Martin, Great column, as ever! I was just wondering, as an avid Spurs fan, it seems 'Deadly' Ledley King is going to finish his career with us but just how beneficial is it for us to have him in the team? His talents are unquestionable but his fitness is such an issue I was wondering if we win more games with him playing or concede less goals? Thanks, Will Hill (Tottenham fan)

MARTIN SAYS: This season, Spurs have a 53% win per centage with King in the team compared to a 50% win per centage when he's missing, so there's not much difference whether he's in or out of the side. Statistically, though, Spurs tend to concede less goals per game when King plays, with an average of 0.80 goals breaching the Tottenham defence, compared to 1.14 when he's absent. And Spurs keep more clean sheets with King in the side. This season, they have kept clean sheets 40% of the time with him in the side, but just 29% without him.

Tottenham's record is below. The win record includes games in which he has played any part, but the goals conceded are only counted if King was on the pitch at the time. Spurs have in fact conceded four goals when he has been substituted.

Tottenham's record 2009/10:

PlayedWon DrewLostPointsAgainstClean sheets
With King1583427126
Without King1474325 164

The reliance on King was far more obvious last season with the side having a much higher win ratio when King was in the side (they had a win per centage of 46% with King, compared to 21% without him). Like the current season, they also conceded less with him in the team (1.08 goals per game), than they did without him (1.36 goals per game).

Tottenham's record 2008/09:

PlayedWon DrewLostPointsAgainstClean sheets
With King24 11 5 8 38 26 7
Without King14 34713196

Overall, it seems King is still a clear benefit to the Spurs side, but they have maybe learned to live without him better than they did last season. And, this is a fairly small sample of matches to be looking at.

THE BELGIANS ARE COMING
Hi Martin. I know I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here, but am I right in thinking Arsenal's brilliant Belgian Thomas Vermaelen would be the first man from his country to win a Premier League medal this season if the Gunners managed to stay the course? I can remember Philippe Albert coming close with Newcastle, but not too many others. Ricky Colquhoun

MARTIN SAYS: Arsenal's impressive centre-half would indeed blaze a trail for Belgians if he were to win the title this year, though you don't need me to tell you there is a long way to go before that happens! You mention Philippe Albert, who was twice a runner-up with Newcastle, and it's true he has come closest to a winners' medal of any of his compatriots.

But the current champions do of course have a Belgian on their books in young Ritchie de Laet, who made one league appearance during last year's title-winning season and has featured just twice this term - nowhere near the 10 times required for a medal. Incidentally two of Vermaelen's Arsenal's team-mates - adopted Croatian Eduardo and Mexican Carlos Vela - would be the first from their nations to win the Premier League too. And just to satisfy those of you with an interest for these things, here is a list of what we think are all the Belgians to play in the Premier League. (As always, do email in and tell us if we've left anyone out). The former Coventry player Laurent Delorge is not included as he never played in the Premier League, while the likes of Pat van den Hauwe (Wales) and Steed Malbranque (France) assumed different nationalities, despite being born in Belgium.

PlayerTeamDates
P AlbertNewcastle94-99
A BakalliWatford99-00
J BlondelTottenham02-04
P ClementCoventry98-99
G de BildeSheff Wed/Villa99-01
R de LaetMan Utd08-
M DegryseSheff Wed95-96
M FellainiEverton08-
R GenauxCoventry96-97
C HoefkensWBA08-09
V KompanyMan City08-
G Mujangi BiaWolves10-
E MpenzaMan City06-08
L NilisAston Villa00-01
C RousselCoventry99-01
B StruparDerby99-02
N VaesenBirmingham02-02, 05-06
D van BuytenMan City04
J van DammeSouthampton04-05
A Vanden BorrePortsmouth09-
T VermaelenArsenal09-

Tyler's teaser

Fill in your answers to Martin's teaser using the feedback form below - and keep those questions coming in!

Comments (56)

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Phil Cockburn (Sunderland fan) says...

Hi Martin, fantastic column as usual. With the disappointing (if not surprising) news of Phil Brown's sacking from Hull last week and talk of Brian Laws possibly being replaced at Burnley, I was wondering if you could provide a run-down of the success rate of post-transfer window managerial changes for clubs battling relegation. The most notable failure I can think of was Alan Shearer taking The Toon doon last season, and I know Mick McCarthy couldn't save us from the mess Howard Wilkinson had left a few years back (although I don't even think Sir Alex could have saved us!) So, what chance a success story for Iain Dowie?

Posted 16:06 22nd March 2010

Phil Meese (Manchester United fan) says...

I believe the 6 players to be have played for both United & AC Milan are; Ray Wilkins, Joe Jordan, David Beckham, Jaap Stam, Massimo Taibi & Jesper Blomqvist.

Posted 13:45 22nd March 2010

Hhh Mmm (Manchester United fan) says...

isn't it true that the spanish league is easier to play in general and that teams get rolled over too easily, maybe that is why messi scores so many goals for his team. i dont thnk he is a good player, he should come to the premier league, then we will no how good he is. he has not earnt the goals he has scored as the spanish league teams are rubbish, there is no competitiom.

Posted 12:47 22nd March 2010

Jaison Thomas (Arsenal fan) says...

This season we saw ManUtd getting some easy penalties against opponents. How many old-Traffordish penalty ManUtd got this season and also in recent title winning season. Which Referee gave maximum penalty to ManUtd

Posted 11:32 22nd March 2010

Chris Markham (Peterborough United fan) says...

at bryan lee... havnt checked the stats but would think that would most likely be arsene wenger,, he seems to buy at least one french/french speaking player in almost every transfer window not to mention the majority of youth players that he buys (not graduats from the sides further down than the youths) in seem to be french

Posted 10:56 22nd March 2010

Darragh Kelly (Manchester United fan) says...

To Kieran (Chelsea Fan) Henning berg won the premier league with blackburn and man utd.

Posted 10:32 22nd March 2010

Nathaniel Smart (Arsenal fan) says...

Hello Martin, I was thinking that considering Arsene Wenger's injury list this season hes done a fantastic job getting Arsenal in the postion that they are in and i was windering when was the last time he was a able to name his best starting evelen

Posted 10:18 22nd March 2010

Stuart Taylor (Manchester United fan) says...

Hi Martin, love the column and a big hello from down under. Park's winner against Liverpool this weekend got me thinking about goals at a team's 'favoured' end (Stretford, Kop etc) and was wondering how many game changing goals have come in favour for the home side or if more goals have been scored at that end. They knocked 3 past Fulham just last week all in the same place so wondering if there may be a trend! Cheers

Posted 03:26 22nd March 2010

A Thompson (Birmingham City fan) says...

Hi Martin. Birmingham City fans are divided over our main striker Cameron Jerome as to whether or not he is any good. What is his goals scored to chances ratio and how does this compare to other strikers within the division? Also how does this compare to the leading strikers of newly promoted clubs in the last decade? Thanks.

Posted 00:10 22nd March 2010

Jack Fouracre (Manchester United fan) says...

The six players to play for Man Utd and Milan: Ray Wilkins Joe Jordan Jaap Stam Massimo Taibi Jesper Blomqvist David Beckham

Posted 23:54 21st March 2010

David Shivman (Arsenal fan) says...

Dear Martin, wasn't Ramon Vega the former Spurs player Belgian?

Posted 22:00 21st March 2010

Adam Brighton (Aston Villa fan) says...

Dear Martin, this is an incredible column and I enjoy reading it every week. My mate and I were brainstorming the "obligatory" penalties awarded to Man United on their home matches. I wasn't taking it all too serious, until he pointed that such penalties have brought ManU many points against the Big Four over the years. Example, vs.Arsenal in August 09, vs.Liverpool today, vs. Arsenal in 2008, vs. Liverpool in 2009 etc... While this might sound irrelevant, can you please point out how many points did ManU win over such penalties home and away this season, and what would the situation be if the penalties were not awarded. Thanks for your time and I hope my question is selected for your answers.

Posted 20:45 21st March 2010

Bryan Lee (Manchester United fan) says...

@ Kieran Murray (Chelsea fan) - sorry Mr. Murray, but it has already been achieved by a former Red Devil. Henning Berg won the Premiership with Blackburn and with Man United. So too bad, he has it first.

Posted 15:48 21st March 2010

Russell Tyler (West Ham United fan) says...

Hi Martin, great collumn as always, i was wondering after Darren Bent scored his 20th goal premier league goal for Sunderland yesterday, i can't believe that he continues to get overlooked for England and after watching Emile Heskeys dreaful preformance for the Villa yesterday as well, surely he has to go to the world cup instead of him. Anyway my question is if he doesn't get selected for the world cup, will he be the first English striker to score 20 league goals in a world cup season and not go to a the world cup? thanks for your time Russell

Posted 13:17 21st March 2010

Sainath Rajagopal (Manchester United fan) says...

hello martin,great column, my friends and i were discussing rooney's goals this season and we couldn't think of any goals that came from outside the penalty area,whereas in previous years he seemed to score quite a few goals from outside the penalty area.could you give me some stats on this?

Posted 07:12 21st March 2010

Scott Sunderland (Manchester United fan) says...

Hey martin In this day of age of talking about young british managers my question is out of the current premiership teams which teams have never had a non british manager.. i know my beloved manchester united haven't.

Posted 05:14 21st March 2010

Danny Greeves (Manchester United fan) says...

Hi Martin, I was thinking about Darren Bent's recent goal scoring exploits and his lack of England appearances. I would like to know who was the last Englishman to score 20+ league goals in a world cup year and then not go to the tournament (excluding players who couldn't go due to injury).

Posted 23:55 20th March 2010

Kieran Murray (Chelsea fan) says...

Hi Martin, with Chelsea and Arsenal going strong in the title race would I be right in saying that Ashley Cole or William Gallas could become the first player to win the Premiership with two different teams?

Posted 20:38 20th March 2010

Tommy Stenger (Sunderland fan) says...

Hiya Martin, Can you please help me settle an arguement. Over the past 3 seasons who has the best home record? Top 5 would be nice. Cheers

Posted 19:46 20th March 2010

David Rees (Sunderland fan) says...

What goalkeeper has scored the most goals in open play

Posted 19:20 20th March 2010

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