Tuesday 19 December 2017 15:20, UK
Jamie Carragher and John Terry spoke of Liverpool and Chelsea's rivalry during their respective playing careers on Monday Night Football.
Chelsea won back-to-back Premier League titles in 2005 and 2006, a period which coincided with Liverpool famously knocking the Blues out of the Champions League on their way to lifting the trophy in Istanbul.
A fierce, frenetic and frequent rivalry saw Terry and Carragher go head-to-head 30 times during their careers, with the ex-Chelsea skipper edging the meetings by 13 wins to 10.
Speaking on MNF, David Jones chaired the discussion as the former England team-mates talked about that Champions League night at Anfield in 2005, the "egos" of Jose Mourinho and Rafa Benitez, and how Chelsea v Liverpool turned into a derby fuelled by "hatred"...
David Jones: Chelsea were the dominant force of English football. So John, why do you think Liverpool caused you so many problems in this period?
John Terry: I'm not sure, because league-wise, if you had stats of the league table, we were around 21 points ahead of you, weren't we?
Jamie Carragher: It was 37 one year [in 2004-05]. That was when we won the semi at Anfield with the ghost goal.
JT: That was one of Mourinho's team-talks before going into the game. 'They're 21 points behind us, don't give them a chance. It's impossible that we can go and lose to these'. But going to Anfield was horrible. The atmosphere... you drive from the hotel, just a 30-minute bus ride, they're all on the streets winding you up, throwing stuff at the bus - it was a nightmare.
DJ: Was it the worst ground to go to?
JT: It was the worst and the best, because the atmosphere was great. But it was one of them that you didn't really fear going there, even though you had some great players like [Fernando] Torres, yourself, Stevie [Gerrard].
You looked forward to going there, as when you're a big player you look forward to playing in those big occasions, the big nights.
The Champions League night in 2005 was one of the best atmospheres I've played in.
DJ: Would you go along with that Jamie?
JC: Yeah. It was. There was a rivalry that had started. The two managers had an ego where they thought they were the best. Jose had won more trophies...
JT: Mourinho was the best...
JC: But he couldn't beat us in those semi-finals [laughter]. But there was a rivalry between the managers. I think that when Roman Abramovich came in and he had all that money, the arrogance kicked in, didn't it, you were a bit cocky. You were, your manager was, your chairman Peter Kenyon was a bit fancy as well.
JT: But we backed it up with Premier Leagues.
JC: You did. Chelsea for us became a bit of a derby game, is the only way I can describe it. It became alongside United and Everton. Maybe even above United. Sometimes I would watch United against Chelsea and I'd want United to win.
That's how much Chelsea used to wind me up! So when we used to play them, you don't just want to win, but you want to stop them winning. So the couple of semi-finals when we beat you, it was more of a relief that you and [Frank] Lampard weren't bouncing around Anfield celebrating!
JT: It was more like a hatred, wasn't it?
JC: It still is!
JT: With England it was Lamps and Stevie, me and Carra. It was a little bit of big rivalry, but big hatred as well, big occasions.
DJ to JC: Did your manager speak about their manager?
JC: Yes. When Mourinho came, he lit up the Premier League didn't he with his press conferences, and Rafa was completely different. He didn't say much in press conferences. I think his quote was, 'Abramovich is the special one'.
He saw Mourinho as his equal. Mourinho came in having won the Champions League, and obviously the league and the UEFA Cup at Porto.
Rafa had come in having won two Spanish leagues at Valencia, which was a huge achievement, and the UEFA Cup, so Rafa didn't see himself as looking up at Mourinho. It was all a bit, 'you're only doing this because of Abramovich's money'.
So he would say that to us, and he had this sort of ego to him. I don't think they ever got on, did they?
JT: No.
JC: They didn't like each other, but I wouldn't say the players didn't like each other. It was fine when we were at England. But I think with Stevie almost going there as well, I think the supporters couldn't stand Chelsea, and there's still that rivalry there. But a lot of it stemmed from Mourinho's press conferences, the things he'd say, you just got wound up by it.
DJ to JT: When Jose would go and speak to the press, and make a few barbs about other clubs and other managers, what was that like for the players behind in the dressing room watching your manager do that?
JT: Brilliant, because it was all fun and games, and he knew exactly what he was doing. He knew he could wind Rafa up. He would sometimes have a joke that he was going to say this, he was going to say that.
That's where Mourinho was great, he was like one of us. It was us against everyone else. I think when he first arrived, that was how he made everyone feel within the club.
Everyone hated us because we had money, we were the new kids on the block. That siege mentality was from him, from his staff and from everyone. The whole world was against us.
JC: Around that time you dominated really in terms of winning the two leagues. At that time, you'd always beat Arsenal, you'd always beat [Sir Alex] Ferguson's Man United as well.
But what was it that we did in terms of the way we set up that you found difficult to overcome? Nobody could beat you really, but we managed to beat you on a couple of occasions.
JT: I think you sat back. You sat back and soaked it up.
JC: What, played you at your own game?
JT: A little bit, yeah. A lot of the games when you look back were nothing games, really. Nothing particularly happened in a lot of them. It was respect, but in a hatred kind of manner because we did. Both clubs, both sets of fans, both players... when it was on that field for 90 minutes we hated each other. But away from it, there was big respect as well and you probably felt the same about us.
JC: When we played you, we basically played direct, long-ball football, but you were so good at attacking that we would target your left-back, whoever it was, because we had Dirk Kuyt to beat them in the air, but we'd never play a ball into midfield, because they had Lampard, Michael Essien, Claude Makelele.
With that power and strength, if you won it there, you had the pace of Damien Duff, Arjen Robben, Joe Cole, these types of players so that was the way we set up against you really.
Not to move out of position, just play direct and look to win the second balls with Stevie around Makelele and hope that something would happen.
JT: We worked a lot on that, and obviously, Kuyt was great in the air, but without being disrespectful, individually we were by far the better team, and not too many of your players would've got into our team.
JC: I might've sneaked in.
JT: Yeah, you and Steve would've got in.
JC: Me and Carvalho at the back! [laughter]
